Thx Roger for answering my question. I don’t this organization is ever going to be elite like they claim. Not with the current ownership group. They’re just not invested in the team’s success like you need to be. Their background isn’t in entertainment. They don’t understand the concept of stars creating revenue, they’re coupon clippers, and landlords. Maybe one of the Bay Area’s tech Plutocrats will buy them out and then we can talk about being elite.
I do wonder about the breakdown of ownership in the Giants. I believe the Johnsons only own 26% even though they are the largest shareholders. Harmon and Sue Burns had the majority until Sue passed away in 2009, and I suspect the Johnsons bought some of their shares from their kids. Burns worked with Charles Johnson at Franklin and I wonder if he recruited him into the original purchase group in 92. My sense was always that Harmon was the. most passionate "fan" among the 92 group, along with Magowan. Charles Johnson has a higher net worth than the principal Dodgers owner, I just don't think understands or cares as much about baseball.
I don't think I would say that this ownership group doesn't understand the concept of stars creating revenue. They were all in on JH Lee who even before he suited up for his first MLB game had a budding level of star appeal. I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the Giants sold more JHL jerseys than any player since Lincecum or Posey from those World Series teams. They gave the go ahead to get 2x Cy Young winner Blake Snell last season, albeit for a short deal with an opt out clause. And this is more or less the same group that had Barry Bonds as the big attraction for years--only difference being the chairman has changed over the years. I think they know exactly what a star player can do for a team.
As for being an elite org. The question is how to build such a team? Free agency, trades, drafts and player development all are part of the equation with none being an end all be all as far as I see it. Brian Sabean did a very good job at building winning teams, dare I say elite teams, with more or less this same ownership group. "Very good job" is maybe an understatement considering the Giants with Sabean as GM went to the World Series 4 times, winning 3 out of 4 and don't forget that there were also postseason berths outside of those 4 World Series seasons. Zaidi seemed to have some good ideas when he was initially hired, yet his teams just could not get off the ground running aside from that '21 season. And I do wonder if he just did not have the "it" factor that some successful GMs or PoBOs seem to have.
I just think there's more to building an elite franchise beyond throwing dollars at every aspect of the equation. If it all came down to an owner's or ownership group's willingness to spend big, the Mets would have far more trophies in their display case, which they don't. We have to wait and see how the next chapter of the Giants with Posey at the helm plays out to see if he has the "it" factor that Sabean seemed to have or that Friedman or Dombrowski seem to currently have. A lot of his former teammates and coaches seem to think that Buster will succeed in his new role. Also, I don't see this ownership group selling the team anytime soon especially with a new front office.
I think its a bit early to label JH Lee a star. I'm not sure Giants even expect Lee to be a star. Just a fan favorite who plays great defense, has speed and is a good enough contact hitter. And renting a great pitcher for half a season isn't a commitment to stardom.
But more to the point, I'm not suggesting just throwing out money makes an organization elite. I am suggesting investing a lot of money in the organization, not just players, is part of it. When you are the only team in the wealthiest area of America playing in a gorgeous ballpark you own, you need to run your team like it. The 86 or so part owners are not doing that.
I respect the fact that you get so many French terms and French-based words correct. I just saw an opportunity for a bit of a double entendre and couldn't resist making 2 points with one sentence.
Reading about the confusing financial machinations that would have to take place in order for the Giants to sign Sasaki, all of a sudden I was sad that Farhan Zaidi was gone. Seems to me like he was always able to figure that stuff out. Who will be doing that now, and does he have the required 'stuff' to do it successfully?
It's not really all that confusing. I probably just explained it poorly. In the end, Sasaki's signing isn't going to be about money. If they need to find a few more bucks somewhere it shouldn't be that difficult, but nobody is going to have much more than about $3m to offer him and that will be a huge bargain for whoever the winning team is (read: Dodgers)
Sasaki is most likely gonna want to play on a team with his fellow countrymen. Unfortunately for us Giants fans, that's the rival blue team down south.
During the Choque de Gigantes broadcasts on MLBNetwork one of the broadcasters (whose name I never got and am unable to google unfortunately) spoke about his playing days and how the White Sox "back in the day" would send their AA/AAA hitting prospects down to the Mexican Winter Leagues in order to "see spin." As the broadcaster explained, the Mexican Leagues are filled with pitchers who rely on big breaking balls to get guys out and were therefore seen at one point by MLB clubs as a worthy challenge to their hitting prospects.
Again, I don't know the broadcaster nor the era he was detailing, but this seems out-of-date to me as far as I can tell the majority of AA/AAA guys in the Winter Leagues are usually: excited to be playing in the stadiums of their home nation; soon to be MiLB free agents looking to impress other organizations (USA or international); or veterans of other summer leagues (Mexico, Asia, USA Indy) who appreciate making some coin in the offseason. If the baseball world still operated as this broadcaster explained it used to I would think a player like Villar would have been counseled to go "see spin" in a competitive setting at some point in his development. In fact, the vibe I get as a very amateur fan from afar is that MLB organizations are weighing many more requests FROM players who want to play WL rather than any MLB org suggesting their guys head south for the winter. Is that your take on the situation as well?
Thx Roger for answering my question. I don’t this organization is ever going to be elite like they claim. Not with the current ownership group. They’re just not invested in the team’s success like you need to be. Their background isn’t in entertainment. They don’t understand the concept of stars creating revenue, they’re coupon clippers, and landlords. Maybe one of the Bay Area’s tech Plutocrats will buy them out and then we can talk about being elite.
I do wonder about the breakdown of ownership in the Giants. I believe the Johnsons only own 26% even though they are the largest shareholders. Harmon and Sue Burns had the majority until Sue passed away in 2009, and I suspect the Johnsons bought some of their shares from their kids. Burns worked with Charles Johnson at Franklin and I wonder if he recruited him into the original purchase group in 92. My sense was always that Harmon was the. most passionate "fan" among the 92 group, along with Magowan. Charles Johnson has a higher net worth than the principal Dodgers owner, I just don't think understands or cares as much about baseball.
I don't think I would say that this ownership group doesn't understand the concept of stars creating revenue. They were all in on JH Lee who even before he suited up for his first MLB game had a budding level of star appeal. I might be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the Giants sold more JHL jerseys than any player since Lincecum or Posey from those World Series teams. They gave the go ahead to get 2x Cy Young winner Blake Snell last season, albeit for a short deal with an opt out clause. And this is more or less the same group that had Barry Bonds as the big attraction for years--only difference being the chairman has changed over the years. I think they know exactly what a star player can do for a team.
As for being an elite org. The question is how to build such a team? Free agency, trades, drafts and player development all are part of the equation with none being an end all be all as far as I see it. Brian Sabean did a very good job at building winning teams, dare I say elite teams, with more or less this same ownership group. "Very good job" is maybe an understatement considering the Giants with Sabean as GM went to the World Series 4 times, winning 3 out of 4 and don't forget that there were also postseason berths outside of those 4 World Series seasons. Zaidi seemed to have some good ideas when he was initially hired, yet his teams just could not get off the ground running aside from that '21 season. And I do wonder if he just did not have the "it" factor that some successful GMs or PoBOs seem to have.
I just think there's more to building an elite franchise beyond throwing dollars at every aspect of the equation. If it all came down to an owner's or ownership group's willingness to spend big, the Mets would have far more trophies in their display case, which they don't. We have to wait and see how the next chapter of the Giants with Posey at the helm plays out to see if he has the "it" factor that Sabean seemed to have or that Friedman or Dombrowski seem to currently have. A lot of his former teammates and coaches seem to think that Buster will succeed in his new role. Also, I don't see this ownership group selling the team anytime soon especially with a new front office.
I think its a bit early to label JH Lee a star. I'm not sure Giants even expect Lee to be a star. Just a fan favorite who plays great defense, has speed and is a good enough contact hitter. And renting a great pitcher for half a season isn't a commitment to stardom.
But more to the point, I'm not suggesting just throwing out money makes an organization elite. I am suggesting investing a lot of money in the organization, not just players, is part of it. When you are the only team in the wealthiest area of America playing in a gorgeous ballpark you own, you need to run your team like it. The 86 or so part owners are not doing that.
I suspect that the marquis of Guggenheim does not think the Giants are a marquee franchise.😉
Thank you, that was bugging me. PedanticPrick3478 out!
I give Lyle the opportunity to make that remark at least once a year. Need to talk to my editor about that!
I respect the fact that you get so many French terms and French-based words correct. I just saw an opportunity for a bit of a double entendre and couldn't resist making 2 points with one sentence.
Reading about the confusing financial machinations that would have to take place in order for the Giants to sign Sasaki, all of a sudden I was sad that Farhan Zaidi was gone. Seems to me like he was always able to figure that stuff out. Who will be doing that now, and does he have the required 'stuff' to do it successfully?
It's not really all that confusing. I probably just explained it poorly. In the end, Sasaki's signing isn't going to be about money. If they need to find a few more bucks somewhere it shouldn't be that difficult, but nobody is going to have much more than about $3m to offer him and that will be a huge bargain for whoever the winning team is (read: Dodgers)
Sasaki is most likely gonna want to play on a team with his fellow countrymen. Unfortunately for us Giants fans, that's the rival blue team down south.
re: Villar's chase rate on offspeed/breaking
During the Choque de Gigantes broadcasts on MLBNetwork one of the broadcasters (whose name I never got and am unable to google unfortunately) spoke about his playing days and how the White Sox "back in the day" would send their AA/AAA hitting prospects down to the Mexican Winter Leagues in order to "see spin." As the broadcaster explained, the Mexican Leagues are filled with pitchers who rely on big breaking balls to get guys out and were therefore seen at one point by MLB clubs as a worthy challenge to their hitting prospects.
Again, I don't know the broadcaster nor the era he was detailing, but this seems out-of-date to me as far as I can tell the majority of AA/AAA guys in the Winter Leagues are usually: excited to be playing in the stadiums of their home nation; soon to be MiLB free agents looking to impress other organizations (USA or international); or veterans of other summer leagues (Mexico, Asia, USA Indy) who appreciate making some coin in the offseason. If the baseball world still operated as this broadcaster explained it used to I would think a player like Villar would have been counseled to go "see spin" in a competitive setting at some point in his development. In fact, the vibe I get as a very amateur fan from afar is that MLB organizations are weighing many more requests FROM players who want to play WL rather than any MLB org suggesting their guys head south for the winter. Is that your take on the situation as well?